LOD Enterprises Chariot Update
We received the following note and photos from Ken Ciak of LOD Enterprises on an update of his latest project the Greek chariot update.
Hello Paul ~ hope you are doing well. I have received photos of the prototypes of the second figure set horses and chariots. The new poses (2 warriors and 2 charioteers) should be done soon (this week perhaps).
I would like to share photos of the pieces. This is not the final color of the chariot or horses.
The figures will fit in the chariots within the circles but also have a solid base to stand outside the chariots with the other figures.
Thanks and talk with you soon,
Ken
Nice and authentic for the “Trojan War” period. Will there be character figures in the future?
Hello Tom ~ yes, the third set will include character figures and potentially two new warrior poses as well. Thank you for the comment ….. Ken
Great stuff! I vote for black horses and a bronze chariot!
Hi Greg ~ Thank you for the comment and recommendations on colors.
Nice job and something to look forward to, no matter what color(s); but Greg’s choice would be nice for the period.
Thank you Wayne and I appreciate the compliment. I am working with the factory on the colors and seeking as much variety as I reasonably can.
I like it,so the idea x figures be hold in place. Greg’s color works x me .With these EF Atlantic and reamsa ,now it will be nice to do some massive battles. I will use it and Atlantic to do battle of Megiddo
Hello Erwin ~ thanks for the feedback and the thought of massive battles is very appealing. Those dioramas and scenes helped push me into creating the Trojan War as much as anything. The figures will rest well within the chariots yet also be functional outside of them. Looking down the road, we may create additional poses that fit within the chariots (and stand free) such as archers for both sides.
As always, thanks to everyone for commenting and to Paul for posting the updates right away. The feedback is tremendous.
Ken
and Kadesh
I vote for a hood scoop and chrome reverse wheels, and tail fins like tail fins.
Hmmm …. That sounds like something Achilles would roll in. That may have a very narrow appeal though :). We will need our customizing experts on that task.
Good luck at the Midwest Show this weekend!
Ken
Hi Ken i collect Ancient and Medieval figures and i really like the Trojan and Greek figures that youv’e brought out and now these Chariots look Great, But can i just ask you have you settled on 60mm plus figures for the future, Because i would prefer 54mm scale figures personally. Is that something you would consider or are you sticking to 60mm. I Hope you dont mind me asking.
Darren, you’ve got to be kidding. Of course Ken Ciak is sticking with his 60mm scale. He has just made a substantial investment in start-up costs in creating a 60mm line of figures and accessories. It is unrealistic to expect him to now start over with a new line in 54mm scale, just because someone says he thinks he would “personally” like something different.
And if you are confining yourself to 54mm Ancients and Medievals, you have apparently taken a pass on Conte, Atlantic, TSSD, Jescan, Reamsa, Cherilea, Marx WOW recasts, and Expeditionary Force — all of which are 60mm, just like LOD.
Thanks I need it.
I think is bern long desided that 60 and up are the main lines of new figures x wile.
Austin,TSSD,EXF,LOD,even latest CTS are the 60 range.All painted factory chinese SUNJADE sold under supreme distribution are 65mm.Most new russian made now are in the 60mm.
The few in the 45/50 are most chinese cheap products and few russian sets.
I think 54mm is thing from past already x those investing as we see so far.
The general rule scale in 1/30 ,not 1/32.
AIP was last resent main investor in the 54 mm range and now dormant x long plus never in to old history periods.
The same trend happen w metal with K&C first,thomas,figarti ,Britain metal and others that went x the 1/30 scale w figures and armor/vehicles.
As EXF before mentioned once the scale is decided in several sets is not going back as will then mess all those who got previously sets.
At the end no even exact size is keep within same scale.
Airfix 1/32 scale sets have some like modern,german paratroopers in the 50/52 mm.Wile others in the 53/56mm range.
Marx did from 25mm to 150 mm
I think is plenty to choose x every body out there.If want to match all brand and scale,good luck with that.
All my favorite Marx figures are 60mm, not quite sure why they were all over the place with their sizes, I suppose they had their reasons though. The other companies producing figures at the same time as Marx were all over the place with their sizes too. It’s almost always been a struggle to match up sizes and girth too. Was AIP actually 54’s, some of their guys look awfully big. Case in point the 95th rifles the officer for one looks like a giant.
The change over to 54mm by Marx started with the Alamo set. It was going to be 45mm as they had used the 45mm pioneers and Indians in one of the early sets. The Marx Shako Hat Mexican with the rifle across the waist is 45mm. something made them to go to 54mm at the point. The figures at 54mm required less plastic than 60mm.
In my opinion…
Marx swap from main 60’s mm scale to 54 mm first to bring more figures and save in plastic production per playset when they star making playset. It give then opportunity and is proved by reducing 15/20% plastic used per figure to make more with less and give a larger selection poses/per mold cavity x the playset. It is not only in taller but the thickness of volume in figures, that is why 54 mm Marx always look so skinny.
The early 35-45 mm are hard to guess why Marx venture but we have to think early LIDO,PAYTON and others were in the 45 mm scale. So may be competition!!?
The later 20/30 mm sets/playset are to enter the new HO line been introduced after the small train hobby fury in the toy kit market with the micro armies scales sets.
The taller 12″ I will think was the last shot to compete with new larger action figures coming type as later GI ‘joes.
Marx varied with the market well x years to accommodate to demand, what made them go off was lack interest in their son(Luis’s sons) and the new toy antiwar way the toy industry had taken with a new mentality.
Marx military dedicated toys and playset were their main production/profit, in early 70’s we all know what happen .I think Marx saw it come just before and made the plans to exit off selling all.
In just few years the English company that took over could not sale well the military Marx sets/Items and end liquidating all.
About the AIP 95TH you need to measure the shoulder high of standing figure with other different army Napoleonic of same company. The hats put off any measure.
In particular case they were depicted with the 1806 British pattern infantry early hat that was indeed higher than standard line French shako hat. So please follow it in consideration.
I think except for the mounted most AIP stay well within range of the 54 mm, some went off but not that much, I will said same as Airfix did too.
Britain figures are 54mm wile many Herald are short in size even wen removing both line figures from bases..
Timpo solid are 54 mm in most wile swapped knights are 60 mm easy and swap cowboys 54 mm.
TSSD,AUSTIN and others have taller 3 to 6 mm high bases that if you removed and glue figure to flat base you will be surprise how smaller they look.
Early CTS ww2 German looks like boys next to ww2 German giants latest sets poses
No body ever did follow and straight line I think
Ed. Me too…I like more all Marx 60 mm scale than 54 mm scale, I do not know why but they look more nicer to me..
May be because were my Dad gift to me and not others ,the later 54 mm series!??
To me I think the 60mm revised pose pioneer firing the flintlock pistol was one of the finest figures ever made. The Rin Tin Tin cavalry was all action poses, none of the turkey guy or guys just walking and running. The skinny 60mm Indians while they appear to be from different tribes were some of the finest Indians ever made. Even the later editions of the 60mm army guys were all excellent, never did understand why the guy with the Thompson was walking like that, but I always imagined him slogging through a swamp or something, but all great figures , you can almost feel the weight of the satchel the one is carrying as he strains with it. The 45mm and 54mm poses always seemed to be lacking somehow in poses as well as sculpting. The 54mm GI’s were nice poses but they suffered from small weapons and overly large hand grenades. The fighting Marines, weren’t living up to their name, in only a few cases were they actually fighting, I mean we could have gotten at least one marine firing a rifle.
All those are my like too.
The skiny indian have one the best sculpt and faces.the arabs are nice figures too,the 60 mm union,rebel and mexixan plus pirates and sailors are also awesome.
On the 54 mm because the material the skinny appearance of their body always made me think they were hungry guys.
Plus like you said having so many poses they waste in most sets the lack of real action poses.They did same error in civil war sets,ww2germans,americans,british,russian,Mexicans and so on.
I still vote for the 54 to 57mm ala Marx, TSSD, and Conte for WWII and western. As far as ancients go X and Ken’s figures as well as the Conte Spartans and TSSD Romans/barbarians all fit well at the 60mm size. Since I have not yet invested in Greek Ancients, 60mm will work for me. I am saving money for these in the future. Already designed a playset box (es) to house them in. I still am disappointed in the X WWII figures. I would have invested quite a bit ($1500 or so) had they matched TSSD and Conte WWII. They are great poses but too large. I also would bet sales would have definitely exceeded the present if the figures matched Conte and TSSD. I would venture to say that there won’t be any reruns of these figures as the interest died as quickly as it appeared. I also have not seen conversions or many listings on ebay either. A survey and input from collectors could have prevented this. They (X) are some of the best figures for WWII since the advent of Conte and TSSD figures. CTS got it right with their recent WWII figures as they blend very nicely with existing product.
It appears that Xforce WW2 sets were a mistake, it’s a new company still learning, but they have stated that all the other WW2 ranges – North Africa and Pacific will be 54-56mm size. Western Europe will stay at the size of the first sets to allow collectors to add to that range. Vehicles and Buildings will also be 1/32 scale.
My issue with the sizes of the new figures is that they advertise them as 1/32 scale so you think they will be 54-56mm and then they turn out to be 60mm or bigger, I’ve been caught out before but not again , now I wait until someone does a comparison photo on this site or another before spending my money.
I have no issue with others collecting 60mm it’s just not my preference.
Many of the new ranges have elongated human proportions so it is practical sometimes to scale them down by converting and certainly removing the mounds called bases helps a lot ! I feel that the mounds are just there because of bad design, integrating the legs into earthwork never looks right, the TSSD German greatcoat sniper pose is a case in point it’s practically impossible to remove him from the base, a standard kneeling pose would have been better and more useful.
Sorry Les ,where did EXF state that !?
As far I know and on a email I received from owner(6 month or so ago); they will continued with the 60 mm or same scale as they did .(Obvious as will let all other sets in odd scale versus any new coming!?)All the Web store site sets with exception of early ACW sets are listed under 60 mm ,not 54mm or 1.32 .
The last ZULU war sets are (temporary in hold release x now are listed as 60 mm scale as well.
I do not think they will shrink back as maid not sense base in what is done.
I have spoken with Xforce owner many times and he gets emails and contacts form all over the world.
It seems many collectors, not the vocal ones on the internet, had opinions on the large size of the WW2 figures and he decided that for the sake of future sales the other campaigns of WW2 would be 54-56mm, he cannot change the size of the Germans and Americans already produced.
The Zulu war ranges and the other ranges to come with firearms will also be 54-56mm, the ACW range will stay the same size and the Ancients will all be 60mm as he is far along with the sets.
The test shots of the Zulus are 54-56mm scale as far as I am aware, so the British will be too. I think the delay is to do with getting the Ancient Chariot sets out first.
This information was sent to me by Scott, the owner, during our conversations. I think in January 2016.
I have no reason to doubt his statements.
I got a complete different response from him too ,in it stated very different ..but will have to see what he got out when they are released.
I don’t know how to see the Zulu size in the test shots!!?
Back here it was posted a response that one collector got from Scott too after receiving the WW2 Germans and it was not stated that way either.
I’m wonder what collector will do when receiving the smaller WW2 soldiers after getting the Free French (NA) ,Americans and German in the 65 mm scale done already.
I guess that will create another issue!!!?
It would be great for some to ask makers like TSSD why they have the “mound bases”.
I would be interested in a reply on that matter as well, as the large bases use up lots of extra plastic which must cost money to use up the valuable space in the mould.
Speaking of the Alamo sets, mine had 54 Mexicans and 45mm defenders, but no Indians.I had two sets of metallic blue Mexicans and one set cream, for the defenders I had two sets silver and one set tan or whatever color that was. Even at the age of 5+, I wondered why a defender had an arrow in him. Too young to think about the revolvers. despite all it’s flaws I loved that set.
Well, Glenn Ford carried a revolver (and I think I remember some Winchesters) in “Man from the Alamo” so it has to be right, right?”
Because of that Hollywood mistake they were able to use footage from Man from the Alamo on aWagon Train episode.
Ed
You had an early set that 54mm pioneers were ready so they used the 45mm pioneers. There is an earlier set 3535 that has 45mm instead of the Mexicans.
Hi Guys thanks for your opinions on the scale of figures, The reason that i prefer 54mm scale is that when i was a kid growing up in England, All the figures i got were 50mm to 54mm like Airfix/Timpo/Britains. There were a few taller figures like Cherelia and Charbens around which i didn’t mind as i just considered them as a few tall warriors. As far as other foreign figures were concerned, I hardly ever saw any in England which seemed to concentrate mainly on British made figures, And believe me i looked in many Toy Shops and Boot Fairs for other figures, And when the internet and ebay really got going i was amazed how many other figures were out there and i brought many from Marx/Italeri/Hat/Lone Star, And many others again in almost all 54mm scale. So ive got a collection of several Thousand figures in mainly 54mm scale and its what ive grown up with. So yes i have noticed that the trend now seems to be bigger figures which as i said before Don i dont really like and that’s my opinion. I wouldn’t mind so much if the figures were a true 60mm, But ive noticed that figures are creeping up to 62mm/65mm and even more, Which to be honest is putting me off collecting some of these new figures which have come out over the past few years, And personally unless i can convert figures down to nearer 54mm scale which is something i like to do i probably will stop collecting figures over 60mm because they will not fit with my big 54mm collection. So yes Don your right about the Conte/Atlantic/TSSD and LOD figures but ive decided not to collect these figures. So come on guys lets have more true 54mm 1/32 scale figures coming out.
When i said about growing up with these 54mm figures in England as a kid, That was in the 70s and 80s before the internet came along, Thanks guys.
Darren
In the United States the only toy soldiers we saw as a child were made here. The exceptions were Britains and Elastolin. The big cities did get foreign figures. I remember going on a bus trip my mother ran to Cherry Hill Mall in Cherry Hill New Jersey and finding Charbens which I bought. This mall was outside of Philadelphia
Hi yeah that seems a shame to me. I always remember being frustrated even back then that there weren’t more figures to get because i dont like having too many figures in the same pose unless its archers or pikemen, Then it dosen’t matter as much. So as i said thank god for the internet as it introduced me to many other figures from around the world. Its just a shame i didn’t know of all these figures when i was a kid in the 70s as i would have been in dreamland.
Darren
I felt the same way but my reason was different as I use the different figures to create unique character. The internet and traveling to Europe has given me a world of figures I never thought existed.
I have stopped buying figures for the reasons you state. I wait until I know exactly what size they are before I put my hand on my wallet.
The scale creep seems to be getting pretty big now, but I have seen the same happening with wargame figures. I think that some of the new sculptors are used to making 28mm out of scale figures so when they try to do 54mm they get the proportions wrong too.
Some of the new figures don’t seem to be very human any more, but some can be corrected by shortening legs and arms and replacing oversized weapons however this is a lot of work and in most cases isn’t worth the effort.
Even Britains couldn’t get the scale correct with may of their figures being 52mm, Airfix started well but went down hill to save money ending up at 1/35th scale. So even in the 1950s to the 1980s nothing was perfect but as kids it wasn’t such a big deal.
I vote for true 54mm figures. The current ones from Austin Miniatures are a perfect size. Hard to beat sculpting on old Marx 54mm Trappers & Miners, Arctic Explorers, Eskimos, Untouchables, etc.. Just my opinion & preference. TSSD & Conte are great, but just a little too big.
We can not have a vote on which size figures should be. LOD Enterprises has decided on 60mm and he can not change now as it will disrupt the range he has started. I have rarely got hung on size as people are not all the same size. I have enjoy 54mm to 90mm. I have had the figures of different scale on the same side. Most makers are staying at the 60mm size.
“vote” was meant to be figurative, not literal.
Andy
I understand what you meant, I just want to stop others from thinking we were going to set up a vote.
Hi again ok if Toy Soldier makers have decided to make figures in 60mm scale thats fair enough and everyones different but i dont think im alone in being dissapointed especially with figures over 60mm but there you go.
I see what you mean about people being different heights, But lets say 54mm scale represents a guy of average height of 5 feet’10, So a 60mm figure represents 6 feet’6, or 6feet’8 Which is fine as there are some tall people around, So a few figures is fine, But you don’t really get whole armies of guys that are 6feet6, And as i said before when figures are 65mm that represents someone of 7feet plus which is ok with just a few figures but too many just dosen’t work in my opinion? What do you think guys do you agree with me?
Not to mention they may be taller as in the human race but the weapons stay the same size. Not proportional. Now it is very evident xforce sees the situation. Otherwise they would not be going to 54 to 57mm on pacific and western desert. They are stuck with the Americans and Germans already released.
That way should be separated and collect as what thay are.
Two diiferent range scales not to be mix.
I do not understand whay it is that hard to get.
According to EXF THEY said 56/58 mm ,not
54 to 57.:-) 🙂 🙂
And they will.do russian,other germans,anericans and serbians in the same taller line.
So ovius not stock,just continued with.
They are selliing then very well in that range otherwise they will not continued with it x future sets
Same in ancient ,renassincean and others that will do in same scale SCOTT just mention.
American figures are all over the place and I think they always have been , take for example Ideal, Payton Remco, Marx, Timmee Lido. A lot of the foreign figures outside of England had varying sizes too, Charbens, Reamsa even Elastolin. It seems if you want to stick with a particular size, you have to stay with the same manufacturer or a small group of them anyway. If you are going to use them in dioramas, you can hide them or blend them in pretty well, however if you like large formations where they are side by side you have issues.
Darren.
It is ovius you can not match size an entire set 54 next to 65.But you can always mix some poses in between .
The 60 mm and taller figures are meant x that scale not to interpose or mix w smaller range.
They are done x that other tange scale.
As you self mentioned ,you personally play with most in the 54mm range as child.
But in that time cherilea.charben and many of crescent were far bigger.Most rest Europe were 65 or taller from 60 to eatly 80s
So as far 54 mm plenty brands had cover most area.In medieval and ancient there plenty of 54mm and actually under.
Airfix.Britain.accurate.herald,lone star ,timpo.Just to cover some brands.
So where u left all who like theit match x the big scale?.
They also want some match too.
So I guess as same y can.not match entire sets of taller w small,same is in reverse.
Meaning ,to every flavor their like.
Resent A call to arms was last UK making sets in 54mm.But their desition of only 4 poses per set was a business kill.
Russian new companies had enter the business in the 60 mm scale following lastes new american and Singaporean/chinese makers that do from 60 up .
Some will do 54 along line.
Now remember medieval and ancient are not top sales.So most producer go slow choosing what they will do.
I collect from 45 to 80 mm.But I separate then as much I can.I combine taller w short in modern post WW2 scenes were terrain and not need to put figures so close each otger help camouflage the difference.
Sorry guys using phone…
I bet u can figured out 🙂 🙂
I like to add that I had red x years the metal forum collectors and same issues and complain appear. Till K & C appear most metal new factories from early 80’s till early 90’s were in the old fashion 54 mm scale. Then K& C come with new (1:30 scale ) figures in the metal/lead line .And right after THOMAS,BRITAIN ,FIGARTI and others followed. Now the 1.30 scale is the most the general in all new metal production and the old 54 mm is past. Same for all building and armors done .
In the plastic range small scale we got the so call (HO) that is not defined and reality comprehend any figure from 1-64,1:72,1:87 or 10/12 mm,15 mm,18 mm and 20 mm . So every where is a mix and match. Others to avoid the issue with exact scale ,just label them as miniature or scale HO in packing outside.
War gamer had hard time keeping with 25mm and start with 30/35 mm after many factories start making it .Then jump to 40/45 mm again
In the larger scale the artist have more room to play with more deep detail, specially when using not veteran artist. Most new producer do not even know who are the artist as figures are done far away and only test sample show after, even today technology is helped by 3D design ;the final detail are still hand carved.
So for an artist working in a figure if given the choice between 54 and 62/63 ,he will go for bigger as more room.
With the figures base TSSD and other style I think is owner choice and could be amended.
I personally not have any issue with it as if so not like will cut off easy and place in any cheap plastic figure flat base, I did it with the annoying metal elevated bases from Britain figures that made not sense to me as not floor, not soil, not rock/field and cumbersome rectangular.
From Europe we got HAT in the 52/54 mm and so far had not restart yet,even so they were coming with ancient sets that were left off in 2011.
Emhar Viking were 54 mm but stop long ago too.
Waterloo- Napoleonic were 54 mm wile Italian WW2 were close to 60 mm-no longer producing.
Italeri Napoleonic Austrian are 58/60 mm in many poses. They announce one set release last year ,not yet out.
It is a hard market out there and if you do few poses per set and not hot sale armies, eventually it will stop .
EXF is new but has way much money than any body else around. The way they produce the sets and diversity plus sets per year said that.Still they may stop one day too but…
They are already in the 1.30 scale invested x long and would not come down.
I bet other maker saw that already and decide to go x same size. In my opinion smart move.
I do not have any against 54 mm at all ,I do collect them too, but those investing look where the market move and target the opportunity for good reasons. They are the ones affronting the expenses, it is their money and they will try push x what they think will bring revenue faster.
I did not did my first armor in 1.30 scale for not reason, I saw it coming long ago.
CTS scale armor were nostalgic made to be, not to match soldiers scale.
Airfix panzer IV are not 1.32 ,compare one to 21 century and will see difference.
Even in armor the scales are not exact too…
If 1:30 is the NEW 1:32 I wonder why TSSD had to go the crowd funding route to get their next sets made.
Apart from HAT the other makers you mention don’t exclusively make figures so they don’t make the effort to maintain a constant scale.
HAT could still be making 54mm if they had just diversified their production to include other historical periods, ACW, ARW, WW2 as not everyone collects ONLY Ancients and Napoleonic.
Yes, but they had not done any yet, are they!?
No 1:30 is 1:30
1.32 Should be 1:32
two scales,two dimensions, two different sizes.
On the scale issue you are correct but sometimes even 1:30 isn’t 1:30 🙂
Yep same as 1.32 are not true 1.32 in many cases.So scale is just a matter of correct measuring aprox around .To be exact you really have to grab the single figure and measure (eye high view) to find how is in mm.
It sad but true!!
No way to find a perfect match.
Even in armor where the vehicle is not a person and should be exact as other we have the cases such as same exact model
(Sample PANZER-IV-B-F1) from Forces of valor versus ,a 21 century and a Airfix (non kit) and there you find discrepancies in all 3. When should not be none if all 3 are label as 1.32 scale by makers.
I have specially tooling to calibrate scales with vehicles specially and plug direct to my computer with a program that scale the item . The result in all 3 were as follow.
Forces of valor-1.30,
21 century-1.33
Airfix – 1.31
None of three model were missing any front chassis or part that differ from each other. The same chassis was used for models from B-F1 in real war time samples. So not way in difference unless Toy maker mistake.
In this case it really concern me because it is not a figure. Still most collector go along and pass on .I did but I recon the difference right away when got then next to each other. So in this case I can not put two next each other in same scene but distance apart.
Italeri and Waterloo annunce their sets as
1:32.Yet go off scale big time .They did not do those sets to match their other line at all.
They specifically started with a new line.
But…
Even italeri mounted napoleonic are close to 60mm ,such french hussar and artillery limber caisson crews.
No body adjusted down.All go up.Wonder why???
TSSD way making last sets is their funding,not their sales.This hobby required
a lot extra money as investor won’t recup fast enough.And buyers will not buy that much this fast.Also many are very demanding and particular in their collection,many collect selective periods.
Is hard to make all happy same time.
Still plenty to choose from around.
Yet LOD did went x tall scale as TSSD!!! 🙂 🙂
Hi Erwin ok thanks for the information and the education. Ok i will just have to accept that there will be different scales coming out all the time and i will just have to accept that and make up my mind personally wether i think figures will fit with mine or not. Im just saying that i wish all the 1/32 figures were between 52mm and 60mm.
I will give you an example, A few years ago i saw for the first time Jecsan Egyptians and i thought wow they look Great and ive got to get hold of some of them, But when i saw them in the flesh they were at least 65mm or taller, So i hung my head in dissappointment and decided not to buy them as they were to big for my collection. Its just annoying at times, But nevermind and thanks for the feedback.
I understand u point and hope companies listing figures in future are mire accurate and honest in the scale.
I see that many list over 60 mm as 1:32 and not correct at all!!
Least EXF list as 60mm only.
And hope HAT or any other in the 54mm range restarts soon.
But my feeling tell me most times companies stop x long,they hardy start over again.
We will have to see on any new coming.
These last russian sets minus orcs all come in the 60mm max range so far ,I think are within u range.
My two cents, scale is more important to some collectors than it is to others. I have collected some figures that are ‘off scale’ because I liked the pose or the sculpting, etc. If you want to discuss scale issues, join a model RR group where obsession with scale is like a mental disorder.
Hi my friend we all have our own opinions on things, And it dosen’t mean your right or im right, All im doing is offering an opinion that all companys should stick roughly to the same scale. Thats how i fill.
Yes as a collector i find it a bit frustrating but i think i can live with it as im not obsessed with scale, And that’s what these forums are for, To discuss our hobby, Am i wrong? Or perhaps i should join a RR Group to see if ive got a mental issue.
Sorry, I didn’t mean you specifically. 54mm or 1:32 is the preferred figure size and scale for many of us including myself. Most of us can’t afford to buy every new figure set that comes out and would prefer figures that fit in with what we have already collected. Most of the readers probably agree with this, but as I say scale is not critical to all collectors. The model RR reference was intended as humor.
Hi there sorry if i came across as a miserable sod and sorry i got the wrong end of the stick. It just started to feel that i was being ganged up on for just putting across a fair opinion. So i thought it was getting like lets have a go at the English guy and i was getting the hump about it. Thanks for the opology. I just wanted to get my point across that figures seem to be getting bigger and bigger and are now nearer 65mm and up which i dont like and i think is too big. Anyway im not going to mention this subject anymore unless someone wants my opinion on it as even im getting fed up talking about it and im starting to bore myself. Thanks again.
Darren
You came with a fair opinion and statement. The increase of the size of the figures has been a contentious issue first in metal with King and Country, then plastic with Conte and TSSD You have the right to say on the size then I am sorry felt ganged up.
here is an interesting not too resent as till 2009 only scale link.
But I though share with you guys as x reference.
http://theminiaturespage.com/ref/scales.html
This reference lists 54mm figures as 1:30 scale, but most of us have been working with 54mm figures in 1:32 scale for decades.
TD Barnecut ,There is a big problem when been exact in measures.What happen is in the 54 mm the reference specify how new companies are making the original 54 mm more in to 1.30=60 mm.
However an I know this will bring more argument but I had red it all over and I can not argue as not me the one who place this rule at all!!
The right way to measure the scale of a figurine-figure is (eye high) as a rule of right scale measure.
Just google correct measuring scale for hobby -“figures” and will tell you the way it is done.
Figures should not be measure from bottom base to top head as either thick hair,hat, helmet and tall base mound will definitely increase the mm.
Such as many airfix are not 54 mm but 55/57 mm ,others 51/52 mm ,Marx so call 54 mm are way high in many-ww2 Germans many are 57/58 mm .
My COMPUTER program for scale measure also do same thing automatic once I scan a figure, it copy send picture and you can see how it measure from eye to were feet rest in the scanned pose figure on screen
Hi Erwin,
There is an urban myth over here about why Marx made 60mm figures and Britians made 54mm.
Britains 1/32 scale figures are measured from the base of the foot to the top of the head of a man standing upright , the man was of average height which in 1940 was 5 feet 8 inches. 54mm.
Marx measured the figures to the eyes, 54mm ,which meant that to the top of the head would make it taller.
This was presumed because the average American was around the 6 feet tall. 60mm approximately.
Of course this is just a myth !
So the height of a 1/32 scale man can be anywhere between 52mm and 57mm, presuming heights between
5 feet 5 inches up to 6 feet 2 inches in actual terms.
The correct way to measure a figure is from the sole of the foot to the top of the head 🙂 If he is wearing a hat just guesstimate where the head stops , its about 4mm above the eyes. This is shown at the back of the Britians old catalogues.
If you wanted to be 100% accurate you would also have to take into account the pose, if a crouching man is 54mm then he is going to be pretty big when he straightens up 🙂
The TMP list is not accurate it is only that mans opinion, so I wouldn’t take it as gospel 🙂 Wargamers create a lot of scales when they mean size, a 28mm mini fig is now listed as being 1/56 scale, but the figure isn’t even in human proportions so how can you scale it !
I’ll just stick with my preferred size and let the rest of you stick with yours 🙂 There really is no right or wrong size only the wrong scale !
And the correct way measuring is your -(“Britain”) gospel!?
ok, yeah!!
TMP is not only his opinion ,it listed any were , but it is up to you to follow your bible or other.
I do not follow it 100% as I do not waste time mm by mm in my life in figures, I think is boring spend time doing that when you can by eyes match the figures aprox…Not worth x me at all and I bet x many either too..
But is a good point follow the eye high rule base in head if it is covered..
Regarding Britain 1/32 base in average 5 feet 8″
in 1940!!
But apparently following references accepted in most encyclopedia is base in a 6feet tall person.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1:32_scale.
So there some discrepancy there too..
Of course I will not measure a figure bending.
Logic is out of question in what pose should be correct choose to measure first off.
There is definitely a wrong size if you take or do a wrong measurement!
Scale are many and depending in type used many are exact others are with aprox of an exact measured ,it is used for prints ,maps and plans ,architecture and so on as well.
But you forgot few details…
What happen if figure does not have shoes, or heels too high!?
What happen if he is standing off in his toe tips?
If he were a hat (guesstimate)!? where his head stop!?WOW!!-Mean X -ray the figure hat?
That is hard.. Now I see how you can measure the Zulus in EXF web site now from the picture..
Don’t forget the carry high feathers too eh!!
What that measurement link said ,is not my bible-gospel-main reference, as I said is listed in many other references as well too..
Thank you for your humor!!!.
Best…
I will cheerfully take figures in any toy soldier scale if I can afford them. For WWII I favor 54 mm because of my old Marx Battleground set, Marx re-issues and Matchbox reissues. That said, I love the Marx 60 mm GIs – what they lack in fine detail they make up for in character. For the same reason I an unreasoning affection for the Lido GIs that were either modeled on the Marx or made by the same sculptor. In other periods I just divide up by scale: I have piles of different knights in 45-50 mm, 54 mm and 60 mm and larger. The same with pirates.
One thing I have noticed – while the premium toy soldier manufacturers seem to be going to 60 mm or larger, the better mass-produced figures like Blue Box and Corps Elite seem to be hovering around 50 mm.
When I was a kid I had soldiers in all sorts of scales – usually happily fighting alongside each other – if I am not mistaken at one point you could simultaneously get MPC GIs in 45 mm, 54 mm, and 60 mm – and in my declining years nothing much has changed!
I really can’t get even all my 54mm WWII soldiers in a single set-up on my battleboard table (8 feet by 4 feet).
So I enjoy using separate 60mm WWII figures in a different set-up, at a different time. Even just the 60mm won’t all fit on my battleboard at the exact same time.
So I’m happy to collect both scales, and I don’t have to forego great new figures in either scale.
If the market has CTS, Austin Miniatures, TSSD, and Conte making WWII Germans and Americans in 55 to 58mm scale and everyone likes these then if you are a company joining the market to produce WWII figures and they are setting the standard for current production WWII figures then your marketing research should at least recognize this FACT and take under consideration. If you truly wish to capture that market base to fully exploit the proven market then it only makes sense to follow suit. Otherwise you run the risk of lower sales. IMO.
Companies don’t do the research in general and some don’t even know that the others exist !
I have come across this many times when discussing figures with makers and am always surprised that they don’t know what is already on the market, this is particularly true of the model companies, Airfix, Italeri, etc.
I would imagine that CTS, Austin and TSSD know what each other has made as they have a manufacturing link. It was these companies plus Conte that created this larger scale in recent years, which is not universally liked but is perceived to be due to the marketing and mentions on forums by the vocal minority. I did Market Research while attending the Toy Soldier shows when I was a retailer and it was clear that the preferred scale was 1/32(54mm), admittedly this was in the UK, and the figures collectors wanted were mainly those already made but they wanted them to have more poses, better sculpting, softer plastic, harder plastic, better packaging, etc . So loads of opinions, none of which were of interest to the makers 🙂
This is not a real business anymore like Marx, Britians, Timpo, etc who used to be Toy Companies, it is a niche collectors market serviced by Toy figure Makers who are also collectors, who really want to make what they want. And who can blame them for that :))
Marx had a reference collection of other companies’ figures. I tried find out what was in it but was unable to get an answer.
CTS, Austin, TSSD and Barzso Collectibles are aware of each other. At one point TSSD was going to do American Revolutionary War until they found out Barzso was doing it. CTS has Jim McGough who is has knowledge on American and major UK companies.
When you did your research years ago the market was 54mm figures. That change when Conte did his figures as he used his masters from the metal for the plastic. As I have stated before King and Country changed the metal standard with its figures and Conte followed suit to keep his figures in scale to K & C. TSSD decided to follow Conte’s size and so forth. CTS stayed with the 54mm in their figures mostly to stay with the Marx 54mm they were using in their playsets. That has changed with the Korean War figures. If I get a chance to talk to Jim I will try to find out their thinking on the matter.
It is true these companies are not true toy companies but niche. Toy soldiers as I have said before are look down upon and we only see safe areas, such knights, cowboys, pirates etc.in the general market. In the main market playsets are either character directed or fantasy.
You are correct in what you say but CONTEs figures aren’t even a constant size his FFL/Taureg and Zulu War are smaller than WW2 and the Alamo Mexicans and Spartans are bigger again.
I don’t see why the metal market ,which is a completely different hobby should influence ours, but it clearly has.
I understand that the original K & C figures, the glossy ones, were closer to 54mm to fit with the then popular metal ranges. So even they have changed !
I guess each to his own ,collect what you feel is right for you.
On the companies not knowing about others, I was really referring to the model companies as I know the others you mention are all collectors. IMEX asked me if a line of WW1 figures would sell since they hadn’t been done before, when I told them that AIP had a few sets out their response was who are AIP . I said that 1/32 scale would sell, so they made them in 1/35 ! and they didn’t sell well ,so they didn’t make anymore !
AIRFIX initially weren’t going to re-issue the 1/32 plastic figures sets again as they didn’t see where the market was, I presume someone persuaded them to re-think the idea.
I have kept my Market Research up since having to give up the business and still can say that , for the UK at least 54mm is the prefered size with the collectors I have contact with.
It always fascinates me that the companies that make the smaller 1/72 scale figures make a vast number of sets in a year and keep going. Now the 28mm hard plastic figures are rapidly catching up with new sets being added on a regular basis. I wonder how the wargame hobby keeps going , although I suppose they have an unending supply of ex-Warhammer players who are starting young. Maybe we need someone to start making 54mm size wargames in a box to grab the attention of the younger gamers. 🙂
YEs K & C started at the smaller scale it would be good if someone could contact the owner on why he changed sizes. Imex was not aware of AIP I am not surprised as I was not impress with the owner the few times I talked with him. As we know Imex made many mistakes such as the brittle plastic. Many companies I have talked to over the years with very good suggestions have been ignored.
Your market research I find flawed as it is first restricted one country, second it is collectors only from your statement. EF started as war game company so their research may have been different.
I have been amazed by the wide variety of 1/72 scale sets. Most of these 1/72 scale sets have come out of Russia. EF has started the 54mm war games though they have been around for years just not as popular as the smaller scales.
Paul,
My market research IS UK Only, why is this a flaw ? It is accurate info obtained from collectors, who else should I have asked ?
Many of the answers I got from collectors here are duplicated on most of the forums I have looked at online which are in the US.
I haven’t seen any 54mm plastic maker advertising their figures as wargames related, I know some people use them that way but not as intended by the maker. I think I have seen an EF advert for their 40mm figures in a wargames mag but haven’t seen them advertising their 54mm figs as wargames ones.
I tried putting this post under your reply but the system wouldn’t let me, so this appears out of context 🙂
I feel your market research is flawed as you are focusing on collectors only. How many people have you talked to? Have you gone to PW to get a poll in it? Have you talked to sellers of the new material in UK. Steve Weston is the largest seller of the new figures in UK from TSSD, Conte, etc. What has he said on sales of the new figures? Also you need to look at the war game market directly.
UK is one just aspect today we need to look at the world. Each country can have a different perspective on a subject.
Right now I have a side project on comic book conventions. In my basic research I have seen that there are three types of conventions local, regional and National. While they share similar traits local conventions are more dominated by the dealers of comic books where at the larger shows they should a smaller presences from what I have heard. I need to go to these shows myself to confirm this information.
I know AIP has been doing promotion with war gamers. Other companies may or may not realize on the war game market. Or they leave the market other dealers who are active in selling to war game market.
Sorry-Gamers x long play with the 54 mm scale and or 1.32 too. I stated bellow in another posting. But also listed in many gamers links as well.
Here is a nice reference about scales, miniatures and gamers and the way to measure it-again!!!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miniature_wargaming
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miniature_figure_(gaming)#Scales
Marx,Britain,timpo,ideal,lido and so on were toy companies dedicates to make toys and toy figures playset for the them existing market x children of most army toys like.
These of today in our hobby are toy soldier collectors makers-companies of figures for the small world of collectors-adults and hobby gamers.
Still listed as company by legal rights and terms. Yes they are niches, but thanks to those niches focusing in so few ,we have what we have. The era of toy soldier companies x children died long ago .
Two different target, two different markets, two different era/times. Not sense compere it!!-two world apparats!!
Still it is small world business market that is look by those investing in this hobby, otherwise the logic followed of scale up after other start would not be done.
I said it and admin mentioned too long before. K & C started it already in metal long ago, many in the metal line followed right after. Most metal collectors I know, first complain then eventually adapted to taller scale of K & C,Figarti,thomas,Del Prado and so on.
But even x the big industry of today’s actual toy maker companies ,research market made mistakes . Look what happen to Hasbro with star war command sets been stop produced in the middle of line and gone x ever. It is a big gamble out there!!
YES. AIP target the “war gamers” hobby all time and actually travel to their shows/fares for it .I Personally saw Tony and spoke with him in there few times. Yes he deal in person too with wargamers hobby stores owners in the sale/bulk market section too. AIP was the main US producer per amount, variety sets and time range production of past 12 yeas or so. In fact more than many around the world as AIP did more sets than Hat and Italeri-combined or more than Airfix and Matchbox too.I’m not counting the color variation and playsets.
It was a general business idea to make more money, many makers of today does contact gamers stores distributor for sales. I had sold large bulk quantities 3 times least to gamers …on the OWN line.
Gamers are in the 1.32 long ago. I belong to one blog group myself and have some friends that do it as well .Not only here in US but other countries as well.
They actually enter in the 1.32 after AIP cover the periods not much covered by many in small and big scales. Still they(gamers) do generally more the 25-40 mm range because the fantasy series run more in that scale.
Yet the 60 mm+ and plus is not very liked in the gamers world as far I know.
About 70% of toy soldier collectors are located in US according to most stores owners that sale abroad. That is why research should cover more than one country I guess. What about rest Europe?. Russia? that had explode now in massive production ?
They should be considered too in any research I guess!!
Yes EXF too focus in games and toy soldiers alike. His logo in top of web site said (Producer of toy and games)
In PW British magazine from March 2012 appear a short advertise and interview do to Scott Lam(owner of EX).Same extract interview was posted in this forum by admin in 2012.
Here is.
here is the link.http://www.stadsstuff.com/?p=665
Scott was referring to the 40mm as wargames figures.
The boxes for the 54mm figures have ‘scale model plastic soldiers’ printed on them.
PW magazine is NOT a wargame magazine its a collectors magazine, different hobby !
but they published it ,did they.
EXF 40 mm line stop in 2013 long ago.
I am on ‘The miniatures page’ web forum, which is US based and I can count on one hand the number of wargamers who post anything about 1:32/54mm figures. They are few and far between, as far as I am aware no producer has sold product direct to customers at any of the Wargames shows in the UK.
So your experience is the opposite to what I have found.
AIP does not target wargamers on their website and does not advertise in wargames magazines. So that is new information for me 🙂
I wargame in 1/32 and have done since the seventies and have found that this scale is NOT catered for specifically and that you just use the figures you pick up from the various makers. I know of no maker that specifically, current or past, that has produced a set of figures configured to fit a wargame , that is a unit in a box type of idea that is offered by the smaller scale companies.
I have seen show games using the CONTE WW2 figures and there are gamers who use the John Jenkins 62mm metal pre-painted figures, so it is just a matter of time before the larger sizes are used.
The fact that you have sold direct to wargamers doesn’t make the figures wargames related. The producers don’t aim for the wargame market.
On the research front, you have to do your own, I did mine for the UK because I’m in the UK, my customers are in the UK and the companies I was dealing with wanted to sell in the UK. Where’s the flaw in that !
If you want worldwide research then you must do it yourself, however I don’t see any difference in what the worldwide market wants that isn’t wanted in the UK. The easiest way is to get the list of everything made in 1/72 plastic and add the list of the 28mm metal and that should be it 🙂
Well now you know AIP did.
Hobby bunker retailer often target gamers shows and travel with their products, set tables to sale most what they carry.
Neither 1.72/28 mm hobby stores/companies that sale to gamers advertise(hey we sale x you gamer!!).
If the toy soldiers old collectors are not buying much, companies will target any buyers-potential=gamers. They are business not collectors along. They produce to get money back.
Yet EXF does advertise it!!and their 40 mm scale that by the way are 45 mm tall x sure ,stop making. So they focused now in the 1.32 and 60+ wherever they are making now.
Gamers and miniature gamer in fact surge after toy soldiers collectors and military enthusiast.
Is been done x long, they are selling and gamers use 1.32 x long already…Is there…Sorry .
Last I did not mention word=(Flaw) ,but is ok…I understand…
best
How do AIP target the wargamers, do they do flyers or just book a table at the shows ?
Hobby Bunker is a retailer and not a maker. So doesn’t apply to what I stated.
If you look at a wargames magazine you will find lots of adverts from 15mm/20mm/28mm companies aimed at the gamers market specifically. It’s a different hobby with more magazines !
Where have you seen these adverts aimed at gamers from toy soldier companies, I check out all the wargame mags and I haven’t seen any, although I don’t see the Spanish ones in the UK ?
‘Gamers and miniature gamer in fact surge after toy soldiers collectors and military enthusiast.’ I don’t understand this comment.
1:32 gamers have been around for a while now but they all use toy soldiers not wargame specific figures in plastic. Some even use 1/35 model kits 🙂
You are correct you did not mention flaw, it was admin, but the way that some posts come up they get mixed with other posts replies. I apologise for this 🙂
I am putting the smileys in my posts so that you know that we are just having a discussion as I realise that some content can be read differently depending on how the person reading feels at the time . I think you understand 🙂
Best Regards,
Les.
AIP-Tony- travel around,I do not know if red other posting as can not reply to same some time here.
The way Tony had done is actually traveling and setting one or two table with samples sets out glue in cases out for them to see.
In others he just walk around and distribute his business card-info. But by now he already not doing so as he stop producing new sets.
He did same at main larges US toy soldiers shows till 2014 when did not set tables. But just walk around in NJ show least as far I recall now.
By today 13 as far I know main hobby gamers carry supplier stores buy bulk sets order from him. I live less 1.5 how from him and see him ever year plus interact with him in around 15 years many times at his house, toy soldiers and so on. Where we talk how big is his business with this hobby. I had been often as his Warehouse during shipments and sales distribution and see to who ,where he sales.
In fact he pointed out that with exception of few main retailers ,toy soldiers collectors single orders are much less than gamers per statistic sales he does.
This too is do to facts that most his products are also carry/sold by main toy soldiers retailers, included Steve Weston in UK with whom AIP share products as part interchange diversity of both l.AIP start carrying Steve Weston WW1 armor few years back .No a bad idea I think too.
Too bad he did not complete the WW1 sets with artillery line that were suppose to be done. Were nice test done, but all stop x good x now!!
He had many test figures samples x much many periods that were left in the test prototype too.
I should not detail more as will involved personal information not related to me to disclose.
I do not understand about Spanish ones you referring too !?.Confuse me there!!
I had a PW magazine and it come with a flyer that has two gamers business included advertised in separated pages loose attached. but as far UK I do not go x ,as not my country.
well “THE GAMERS” and military enthusiast games fury surge after toy soldiers meaning.
The hobby of painting, collecting, and playing with miniatures originated with toy soldiers, though the latter were generally sold pre-painted and or painted.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miniature_figure_(gaming)#Scales
You said “1:32 gamers have been around for a while now but they all use toy soldiers not wargame specific figures in plastic.”
What is that a riddle of what I said. Same thing just around. LOL!!
there NOT such thing as specific wargamers figures.
They as you know and yourseld mentioned before used any from 1.72 till 90 mm in gamers, they used any miniatures, toy soldiers else as far serve the purpose x battle formation and match in same game/table match.
Yes for 15-20 years the 28/45 mm had been most used, but with new generation and companies in the 2000’s such as AIP,HAT producing cheap sets massive armies, the interested and swap to 54 mm and 1.32 had become a big impact.
Again here is a reference of miniatures gamers and all scales figures they use.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miniature_figure_(gaming)#Scales
Best…
HB is a retailer,yet they target a hobby ,you said toy soldiers 1.32 do not sale to gamers. In fact they(HB) sale a lot in that range scale to them at gamers-shows. So should count the fact that a main US retailers specifically target a different hobby line with toy soldiers and they research the market as well much better than any single collectors as they keep track and reference of sales, to whom, inventory and what sales most to where and whom.
I thought you said you stop selling?
Admin,
If this is directed at me, then yes I have stopped trading as a retailer but keep up with the market and the industry.
You say above that my research is flawed because I only talked to collectors, this is because the collector is the end user and the reason that the figures are produced by manufacturers. If there is no end user then there is no business.
Finding out what collectors want surely is the information that manufacturers need as they are the ones making the product that needs to be sold. So making what collectors want will help them sell stock !
I have talked to the hundreds of collectors that attended the London Toy soldier shows , PW shows and my customers. I sent/gave questionaires out to customers to pass onto their friends and any collectors they know. Who have I missed ?
It is not necessary to talk to the dealers/sellers as they generally don’t talk with customers only want to sell their inventory. In my experience. Yours may be different of course 🙂
My research is a few years old now, of course, but funnily enough the majority of the sets requested have not been produced in 1:32 yet ! So it is still valid from that point of view.
Retailers selling into the wargame market is nothing to do with the makers, it is only the dealers way of trying to sell more product by identifying another revenue stream. My point was that the makers don’t aim at the gamers market, AIP of course now being the exception 🙂
Erwin,
There are many figures exclusively made for the gamers market in many scales in metal and plastic, but not in 1:32 plastic the figures used in this scale are the ones we collect. Wargaming is a different market although there are a few of us here that cross the line 🙂 The 28mm figure lines are not intended for the toy soldier market for example, they are made by wargamers for their market, toy soldier guys may buy them but that doesn’t mean they weren’t originally intended for wargaming.
Also please don’t take what you read on Wikipedia to be 100% accurate, there is nothing official about their pages they are put up by anyone who wants to get involved with them. There are many flaws in their entries.
Since a toy soldier is a miniature version of a human the way to measure them is the same as a human. If you attend a hospital/doctor and they require your height they take it , normally from your feet on the floor without shoes to the top of your head on a scale attached to the wall. They read off the measurement on the scale. Your eyes are only involved if you go to the optician 🙂 You can of course continue to measure the way you think is right.
Also I didn’t say that toy soldiers do not sell to gamers , I said that manufacturers do not sell to gamers, there is a difference. Apart from AIP have you seen CONTE, TSSD, AUSTIN, CTS, etc with a table at any wargames conventions ?
Dealers/retailers can sell their inventory to whatever market they like it is of no interest to the makers as long as the dealer keeps buying stocks from them !
It is clear to me reading and re-reading these various posts that we have a language difference, what is it they say about the US and the UK divided by a common language 🙂 So I think we understand each others point of view clearly now and we will just have to agree to disagree 🙂
Best regards,
So.now wikepedia is not accepted.ok
What u need britanic encyclopedia?
Manufacturers do sale to gamers.AIP iS been doing it x years,not just now.
Conte is out x long.
On others.I had not talk direct regarding .Yet have u see the oposite? to disprove complete?
Still are offered to in the market.
If u understand better realize it.
My words said,no there not such thing as specific war gamers figures.
Of course that had done x the main popular scale 28/45 mm line in the metal range and some plastic.Yet they(gamers) use massives 1:72 produced by hats.italeri,airfix,a call to arms,and many other toy soldiers non gamer fugures .Those minatures are sold to gamers and target x then.Hat web site had the 1:72 listed under Games too.
So not rules stablish as,specific war gamers figures .
I see a lot differene in way of understanding from you and turning around the sentence or idea it may express.
May be part of the issue here.
X me is enought what I had see and forth seen.
The way toy soldiers are been make long ago would had died if focused in collectors only.
Makers,producer and retailers are in to money.
When research is done they heard the voice of those ,not the bottom pockets.
They see with big $$ all time.
Main market is US in all hobbies.
That is where focus more.Then central europe,after others such UK.Becaue population,countries with more income per capital and high retirements plans among other things of course.
Best…
Market data has to be constantly updated. You can not stand on years old data as the market changes.
And sorry x words as using phone and a bit odd how it reword sometimes w typing fast.I do all time as every body know me.
LOL!! 🙂 🙂
It is well known in UK/Europe that Wikipedia is not reliable, so maybe only the USA excepts it as accurate.
As I said in my previous post, misunderstanding based on language. I said AIP sell to gamers.
You are again wrong in your understanding that there are no wargame specific made figures. The 1/72 scale makers you mention didn’t start offering their products to gamers originally, they were marketed to the toy/model market, it is only recently that they have realised they can re-package sets as games. Gamers buy them for sure because they are cheaper than buying the wargame specific metal/plastic figures.
Toy soldiers were NEVER originally offered to collectors they were offered to kids as toys, which is why we call them toy soldiers 🙂 Collectors came later.
Yes ,makers are into making money, but it is of no interest if they sell direct or to wholesalers/dealers as long as they sell product . In my experience makers don’t do the research, yours may be different 🙂
The US is the biggest market but that does not mean that the other markets are NOT interested in what they offer. If you make a product of worldwide interest surely you will sell more of it !
Best regards,
War Gaming with 1/72 scale figures is not recent it is at least 25 years old at least. At the German Plastic show we would see collectors buy six boxes or more of a set. What is recent is the wide variety of obscure topics in 1/72 scale.
Wikipedia not reliable 100% ,yet is used by most around as use bibliography taken that are from very reliable sources many time .Now you also talk general x all in UK and Europe, interesting . How you done research on Wikipedia reliability too!!??WOW!!Impress!!LOL!!
No:You are wrong in specific figures sentence misunderstanding again as well.
I did not said they(makers) did start offering. I said gamers buy then by tons as 1:72 scale is one of the main scales covered in gamers after 28/45 mm as you well know I suppose. Makers of those companies of course know that and produce for that hobby/intentional too as they know will buy in bulk larger than toy soldiers collectors to feel their ranks.!!They do.Got it!!.
So about the “specific” 28mm/45 mm sets made by few gamers/Factories Companies/producers making in most metal type figures feel only one size range wile most other GAMERS had turn to the 1:72 scale plastic figures/soldiers makers-factories to complete the few “true gamers (makers) lines” figures available in market that are in no way same amount as those in 28/45 mm line produced.
Yes they buy then(1:72 plastic from above mentioned first companies) as more x less of course and 1:72 in “metal gamers specific line” had been reduced x long because the plastic 1:72 are being used and reduce their sales.(If people-gamers buy more 1:72 plastic and not” gamers specific branded” figures, will “”specific war gamers”” makers (continue making) their own even they will sale less and had done so already!!??So it does sale, they buy them and is working. Makers know that for many years.
Next-Toy soldiers of today actual market ,not past,I was referring too. We are talking about now, not 40+ years ago.Are we.!? So why mention (Toy soldiers were NEVER originally offered to collectors they were offered to kids ) Again I see another twist from my sentences in your responses x not reason.
The way toy soldiers had been making long ago (referring from very late 80 till now) for collectors, not children .Would had died down would makers had not be able to sale in all directions all time . Most main general European makers such Hat, A call..Esci,Italeri, Waterloo-1815,IMEX had covered 1.72,1.35 and 1.32 ,also in some cases others scales in between.
Wonder why so much actually in the smaller scale than larger by the way?
The real toy soldiers collectors in HO line are in fact very few compare to ours .
Many HO-smaller scales Makers do it for gamers-target as they know ill buy more. The small 1.72/176/1.87=HO scale had been used for many years on that for that purpose too. In fact many above companies start with that scales and then start much later in the larger.
Companies such Steve Weston, CTS,conte,tssd,austin barzso ,EB,Pluv and few others are more exclusive dedicated first and above all in our hobby ,but because the background of it funder too, these are very small companies family/friend funded by most former collectors.
Wile others focus in Business priority.
Scott-EF had been a gamer and also a collector as well he did play with toy soldier too as children. Now he is more in to business and obvious operate with much more budget than many others in the field now. So he follow his big bulk sales.
Next- you said(Since a toy soldier is a miniature version of a human the way to measure them is the same as a human)-that IS YOUR WAY BASE IN other way to do .You same said ,every body believe in what you think.
Ok then do not enforce it as official and only correct right way ,if specifically are two different way do to; the fact of the hat or helmet above head where your X-RAY won’t work in my opinion by just guessing. If your happy with, great x you.
If figures has nothing on head, it is ok I think.
Next-DR visit !!!!
If you are in the Dr and you have a hat, they will tell you (take off the hat please ,so I can measure from top the head).
Now explain how you tell your toy soldiers, “”please take off your hat to measure your top head””.!??LOL!!
Again-Figure high measurements that are based on the height of a miniature from the soles of its feet to the height of its eyes. The Scale Ratio equivalents to these measurements are based on the measurement of 1610 mm (about 5′ 3″), the average height of an adult male from the soles of the feet to the height of the eyes.
Often known as “to-the-eye” scale, this method of measurement allows wargamers/modelers to judge the comparative height of a miniature without having to estimate the actual height of the head which is often covered in some sort of military headgear. It is important to know which system of measurements a given company is using since it can drastically affect the compatibility between different company’s miniatures as well as compatibility between miniature wargaming models and kits produced for scale Model Building hobbies.
Once -Again here are you arguing something is not said by me but others around ,no only Wikipedia please, but I do not said is the only way neither I imposes it as official base in Britain 1940 book I guess you said!?.By the way real people standard size had change since 40s!!
That is a bit obsolete I guess!!
Taken from other contest/comment you did.
Collectors may be the end of line but big retailers will still buy new coming sets/items as they need feel the stores and offer new, they need to show all time new items, so they target any and buy from maker wherever they think will go out. If they sale less than 10% in a year on that product, they know will not be good, but if sale 50% or more and in that year a new product from same maker/company show up, they will buy it x resale as they know is a demand or will/could be. They take more risk than any.
In the specific toy soldier retail business there not such thing as return or refund or insurance sale warranty product.It is take and sale it or loose your money. It is at risk .
I use LOL!! Instead happy faces!!
Best..
I found interring how specific (A call to arms)maker that only done 1.72 and 1.32 scale did refer to gamers in his web site main page introduction.
In it the specially appreciate the support of collectors and “war gamers” for the continued purchase of their figures. What does that tell you them. A coincidence or they start with 1:72 for toy soldiers collectors only!?
Here.
http://www.acalltoarms.co.uk/contents_1.shtml
Hat covered three main scales and also in more not specific way does appreciate and offer them for the gamers. Yes not exactly which to it.But offer is there.
here.
http://www.hat.com/
So yes ,both do target the gamers hobby with their 1.72 figures and other as well.
I don’t know if I want to step in here and get caught in the crossfire or not.
What the heck. I know that even though some scales such as 40mm and 28mm seem to have been more dedicated to gaming than general collecting (and I speak as a casual observer trying to studiously avoid being dragged in to collecting more scales) – I’ve seen gaming with both 1/32 (or 54mm) as well as 1/72 scales. Both scales have their unique advantages – with 1/32 being great for small unit actions and 1/72 being even better than 40mm in conducting large scale battles in a relatively smaller area.
As a 1/72 collector who is mainly into scenes and/or dioramas, one of my main gripes has been that more and more we see the makers catering to wargaming rather than dioramists. Mold limitations and costs of productions seem to lend to that trend as well with a typical set having eight poses covering the basic poses gamers love – Officer, standing firing, kneeling firing (if applicable), an advancing figure, defending or holding figure, marching figure, and loading figure for pre-20th C figures and for 20th C maybe a grenade thrower or prone MG substituting for the loading and marching figures.
Gone are the days of the specialty poses like Marx and Airfix gave us (in their 1/72 sets at least). I remember one day playing with my younger brothers with the guys from Airfix I sent them from Germany. They had every World War 2 set Airfix produced in 1/32 scale and we had them all set up in a cataclysmic Axis v. Allies battle. It was then I realized that with the exceptions of some of their sets (Gurkhas, US Paratroops, German Ski Troops, etc.) you had a basic seven poses – all pretty much the same except for uniforms. Boring.
I see that trend in several makers today – particularly in 1/72 scale. But that’s what the gamers want and the makers I know of and have input to are trying to please the gamers as that is the side of bread that is buttered. I understand it after all, if they don’t make money they can’t stay in business. But I think everyone of us have memories of that ONE pose (or maybe more than one) that WOWED us when we first opened the box or bag. I know I do. Those were the ones that made our battles come alive.
I remember in one discussion (behind closed doors) over which poses should be in a set I was at odds with a gamer who wanted to include another “generic” pose instead of a “specialty” pose such as a casualty because he could use markers for casualties I made the comment that for that matter why even use toy soldiers at all? If his figures were just game pieces he could used matchsticks to represent his units – just paint them different colors to differentiate armies. I would think sticking a guy or two catching a bullet in the formation would lend realism to a game. JMO, but I’ve been out of the gaming side of things for decades because no one in my area either collects or games.
Now I can understand the point. There is the infamous IMEX drinking his coffee pose. A wonderful pose and one I love; but you don’t need a dozen of them in your scenes. But one or two around a campfire…
I’ve seen some wonderful sets with some great ideas fail because the poses were really TOO good and TOO unique. Folks love the figures but we don’t need an army of them. So it’s fine line. I know the makers have to tread that carefully or they can lose their shirts.
HaT tried to tread that line with their MAC (Marching, Action, Command) configuration. This allowed a collector/gamer to buy as many or as few of selected types of soldiers as they wanted or needed for their armies/collections. But even then, they stayed within the parameters of gamer’s needs/wants – in the three scales they’ve worked in (1/72, 28mm, 54mm).
Les’ research may be limited to the UK and a few years old. Some might say it’s anecdotal and not scientific, but that doesn’t mean it’s without merit or should be ignored; but Europe and the USA ARE different markets. Face it, for us it may be ARW but my European buddies want 7YW.
As far as makers knowing what’s on the market I think it depends on the maker. Folks like the Versteegs, Ron Barzso, and Gene Abraya (I hope I spelled his name right) among others I know work together often and help each other out. They are well aware of what is out there and know their market.
Others and a few I have good relationships with are unaware of what’s going. I’ve spoken with one whom I consider a very good friend (even though we’ve only communicated through e-mail or online, what a wonderful world, eh?) who asked me what was out there. I’ve invited him to go to some of the shows. He heads one of the most prolific manufacturers of Toy Soldiers/Miniatures/whatever in the market but has never been to a toy soldier show. He said he doesn’t have the time. Well, I can’t argue with his success… So I don’t think one can speak definitively either way as far as market research. Some do, some don’t. I think my friend has a select few he gets input from who ARE or TRY to be in the know, and then goes with that and his own gut. I can tell you he takes the input of his customers seriously and often uses his forum to solicit advice and opinions.
I hope this helps.
Wayne I agree with most what u said.
And interesting view and connection.
Will be great u find out more.
I do not need to know and who.But werever they said is always interesting to know.
Also u got valid points in your observation.
and views.
I been alway curius about how many collectors are in the US in the particular large scale line of plastic too.
I have many who had bough and I know they are.Others I ask and few I forget too.
I had sold to collectors,but also few who had bought x their kids and or school projects .
I have many gamers buyers too and also those who considered figure collectors not real toy soldiers collectors as they collect diversity as civilian figures animals,others toys as well.
So is a very diverse and varied world out there that definetely could buy …
At same time I had feeling are not very well awere of main production too.Part of this is lack in the producers to get more selfadvertise around and only do direct sale to mainly retailers or not go to shows.Not only big shows but others.
Yet it involves a lot time and extra expenses that will cost them.With some good connection they can advertise with out atualy going I think.
They too could try approach museums.schools and other places and they barrely do.
So I just partially reafirm some of you observation as agree w you.
Hope im right on it..
Best..
I long for one of the TS manufacturers to recreate the Marx GI set with the stretcher bearers, shot, carrying wounded in the new 58mm scale. Hopefully TSSD which did the US cavalry/Indian casualty set or CTS with their German medical set will do something like Marx.
Tom .The idea is not bad at all, I will like see those poses too. But will and could be done by those doing limited run sets production as best bet. As market will not bee too big in the specific poses you are referring . As in any battle scene you may use two-three team sets of same x least 10 sets of action poses. Unless are very well mix few in between a large set of action other poses I think.
Again I’m wonder how many medical WW2 German CTS set had been sold versus other action and artillery crew sets!?
Would be great to find out from CTS owners voice, as will be the best source of course.
By the way I notice CTS web site had under the 54 mm listed many 60mm and plus sets. In fact the BMC pacific sets(direct copied from 1.30scale metal K&C poses are described as 54 mm. Wile we all know are 60mm and up.
So here again we got the issue in how makers, retailers do the same all overmixing and wrong labeling scales/sizes