Expeditionary Force Zulus are Coming. On Steve Weston’s web site Steve stated he will be getting the first of Expeditionary Force Zulus around the end of May. The first two offerings will be married regiments Zulus in war dress and unmarried regiment Zulus in war dress. This will be the first of an exciting series of figures related to the Zulu Wars. Some of the other figures coming out from now to October are more Zulus, Natal Contingents and Carbineers. On the British side will be infantry, cavalry and artillery. Finally you will have Boer Volunteers.
Expeditionary Force Zulus are Coming Details
Steve is stating they will be 54mm. We will have to wait and see if the figures match the Conte Collectibles Zulu and 24th Foot. If they do Expeditionary Force will enhance your army.
As we get more details such as poses and cost we will posted the information here.
Update
Steve Weston sent us exclusive photos of Expeditionary Force Zulus with Armies in Plastic to give an idea how they work. As we get more information we will post it here.
Steve Weston has photos of the two different Expeditionary Forces Zulus on his site. which you can check out here.
Speaking of Zulu’s did anybody know that at the beginning of the movie Gladiator when they are going to fight the Barbarians, the chant the Barbarians were using was actually the soundtrack from the movie Zulu?
Ed.not . Sorry I mean to disagree in respectful way on this as is a wrong rumor spread and I like things to be analyzed before being spread and accepted as actual or real please.
I have to disagree in it 100% and in historical way had come to conclusion by films experts it was not same.
When I first heard the rumor as honesty at seen movie first did not do the same relation with Older Zulu film neither connect similarities.
I test my self after reading and set My PC and laptop with same two movies and parts, put two single head sets from each machine to each ears and listen x many times.
Clearly is not same words or chants, neither pronunciation.
Then I spend over 2 years in research and contact to friends at Germany .
They direct me to others and several blogs, after research ,
This is their answer pretty much
The chants are rather faint but quite clear. The chant is led by one voice and then responded to by many (presumably all) barbarian voices. As I’m not at all an expert or audition ,neither know any old German languages, I will do the best I can describing it as sounding like they are saying “Boomp Wasee”, “Hooah”, “Boomp Wasee”, “Zuuuuu”.
From old Anglo Saxon and probably Scandinavia old Dan mix
is as follow
Boowemp Sollen Wass “hooo “ Boowemp,zuuuu,zuuuu
That in what could be in modern German is
Eroberer sollten wissen, mit wem sie erobern
That translate in English pretty much as (conqueror should know who they conquer)
That is wrongly but close translate by a roman officer in the film too
The only word odd or rare is “Zu”=that today German mean just (to ) and could had been taken as a derived and extended in the film as ZUUUUUUUUUU… like “attack” them or so base in the same(Zu ) word used in old Nordic Scandinavian Danes war chant before charge in battle.
There for the miss understanding of as similar words (usuthu or Uzutu)that is chant by Zulus in the Film Zulu.
After deep research at several forums and historical German sites I found the above information and extracted long ago to post it an a historical blog I’m part of too.
Also I red about R Scoot director uses a chorus of Scottish (12) guys to record the words used and two working in production come years after dismissing the use of same part at all.
Any how ,yes it looks a bit similar and confuse and funny.
I prefer Zulu war as much much accurate and fair portray of both sides in valor and way depicted.
Versus the fantasy non historical in any at all movie “gladiator “ where a roman officer charge in to battle using a German Shepard or possible Belgian Sheppard mix. A Dog breed not artificially genetically and mix created till late XIX century by Germans by the way.
Best regards…
Forgot….you can also set close caption both movie in DVD and/ or in a PC and see wording letter pup up in screen from audio digital translator. It will show a clear difference in both .
Best…
Wow you certainly know your history Erwin and look into things in a big way. I must admit i also thought the chants in these 2 Great films were more or less the same, But i will bow to your knowledge.
They actually printed it in a magazine that the chant was the same as a tribute to I think to the director of Zulu. The first time I saw the movie that’s what I said to, why are they using the chant to Zulu? I would hope they got it from a reliable source before they printed it, of course maybe they didn’t. It sure sounds like it to me.
yes they posted in media x months I saw too.Till some start to disprove it, specially producers from film gladiator as would involve copy writes immediately . it IS Also explained in the Special edition 2013 re-edition of the gladiator “blue ray” DVD movie on Disk 2 where especial actor and producer interview are and actually show the chorus recording it at London Studios.
They used Scottish as is a they had the guttural language accent as early primitive Germans languages were too.
To actually heard the most today close to old Germans you may listen A Danish or Norway people talking, not same but close as some old Teutonic language would sound…
I red too after,I think a year or so after movie come out the comments in magazine. Would it be same or close ,trust me a big sue would be made.
Still old videos on( you tube) trying to put it as similar with both videos mix are easy to find, you can goggle and see how different they sound in a simple you tube video intended to be use as (“was same”).
I do not know how many so call expert movies critcs people can not heard the difference when listen both next to each other. I understand if trying remember it sound same style ,once you really compere you find out like I did and test and did research after
A lot myth spread and get tangle.
I’m very against, I like dig true out,I hate just word or some said as fact
Nothing personal at all please, just in general comment way .
The same so many myth in this hobby about some molds else. I doubt some history till I find if is true ,varied or not true at all.
All movie claim historical always said (base in historical fact) for some reason as immediately the only historical fact are probably less 10% of film
rest is baloney .They know it so the put that nice label to avoid disputes.
Like I repeat ed please, in no way personal is just I heard it before and made me jump out.
sorry…I’m a very pro historical touchy…
and apologize x it …
Close captioning means nothing to me, they screw up the words half the time on that anyway. Ever watch a sporting event with close captioning? Sometimes you can’t even figure out what the guy was trying to say.
not new stream digital close caption, I had test and is good.
no problem ed..
best..
No, you are wrong. It was a tribute to the movie “Zulu”. I have the magazine and the direct quotes and it wasn’t ” ZULU”, it was “UTHUTU” the Zulu war chant which if my memory is accurate means ” My spear will drink ( or has drunk )”. I’ll have to dig out my copy of The Washing of The Spears to make sure. Ed and I have had this conversation many a time and after I read that article about about the making of “Zulu” I had to admit he was right and I was wrong.
MIKE ,see the Blue Rey ext. edition 2013, see what they said (the producer of gladiators),not the magazine. Sorry
Zulu war cry is (Usutu=USUTHU),it does not mean any. It is the name of king Cetshwayo’s Usuthu personal force from early young Zulu group known as the Usuthu.
http://www.britannica.com/topic/Usuthu
http://www.backworth.co.za/blog/2013/9/24/usuthu-usuthu-the-war-cry-echoes.html
But is ok, like I said .I explain my self and give my opinion and bases plus way to test x yourself if like , you guys may follow what some body said in magazine versus producers said in an official DVD from actual movie. I understand!!
Best regards…
By the way the extended edition had some scenes not fun seen, like when Commodus kill Edr, the generals Belgian German Sheppard mix dog who is crying looking x his master after he is send to be dispatched , that was deleted from theater film as will be too sad according to directors comments in DVD , a longer coliseum battles action and few others minor parts are also included.
Too sad that Reed suffer at heart attack on filming and died, never able to see his great acting in the film..
Yeah we don’t need any Old Yeller scenes in our Gladiator movies.
Okay who cried when Old Yeller died? ( scene from Stripes)
Just received the first 2 sets of Zulus today, and yes, they are 54mm I am pleased to say as otherwise I would have had to send them back. Plug in arms are a little sloppy in fit, but at least Scott has listened and given us plug-in instead of lug or key fit parts. You get 2 runners of weapons, together with the plug in arms allowing a lot of flexability – I hope the rest of this range will be this good.
Glad they are 54 mm!.Hope they blend well with AIP/Conte as not Zulu around are over 56/58 mm I guess; unless in new production. AIP and Malborouh are right about same. I think A call to arms are a bit tiny !!
Will see in British/colonial
I know they were doing some with not common weapons used too suck axes and swords. Hope they did them
They look really big next to the AIP ,which are a reasonable size, for me . Height seems too tall, a head size over the others in the photos, the arm and body sizes seem quite large compared to AIP figures.
Disappointing for me, as I had plans for them to be used for conversions but maybe not for others. I’ll save my money and hope the British and Auxiliary forces might be more useful.
Maybe the picture angle!?
Will have to wait x more pictures.
But again base in EXF I will never think they will go near true 54mm as I mention before.They did not discuse much their Zulu line in.last future release but they always mention 56/57mm most time.
Again these are just two pictures.
A call to arms and malborough Zulu s were smaller than 54mm and not match with AIP neither Conte,so may be good x dwarf impis :-):-)?
The plug in.part is good news but looks like they screw to start with,hope fix soon.
I like the poses and different weapons not done before.
I will get then to match werever scale they match x me as I collect all w out problems.
I read on Michigan Toy website that in order for EF to get the forked tongue whip for the chariot rider, the mold is run twice, once with soft plastic to get the whip and once with stiffer plastic for the rest. The stiffer plastic did not allow the historically accurate forked tongue whip due to flow resistance, hence the use of softer plastic. Then the softer plastic is used as regrind. Doesn’t this mean that EF figures may become brittle like the Marx regrind figures?
Maybe after 30 plus years….
🙂 🙂 🙂
Ken reads my site so perhaps we will here from him before OTSN in regards to this matter.
No, and it’s best not to jump from a speculative supposition to an unwarranted conclusion.
The fact that Louis Marx and Co. sometimes used reground plastic, and that this might have contributed to some of its figures years later becoming brittle was never proven, either by tests, or any kind of scientific analysis. It was simply one THEORY, among several, to account for some of Marx figures becoming brittle. And it was certainly never demonstrated, by anyone, anywhere, at anytime, that the Marx figures which became brittle were those which had reground plastic in them.
A more plausible theory, one actually supported by numerous bits of anecdotal evidence by multiple hobbyists, is that the brittleness of some Marx figures ultimately came from exposure to repeated, extreme high and low temperatures of heat and cold, resulting from long term storage in attics, overhead garage bins, and the like.
A little logic has to be used, before we start denigrating a new manufacturer of toy soldiers for something which has no basis in evidence.
One of the problems with Marx particularily the Vikings I thought was diagnosed. I don’t know the reason they were so brittle that they would literally crumble to pieces in the box. Maybe someone can refresh my memory as to what the issue was with the Vikings.
The figures that broke easy were the Marx 54mm Boonesborough pioneers. The plastic that was used was the problem.
If it was due to something like repeated high temp recycling, like in an attic, then why is it typically related to certain groups of figures and not random. The boonesboro pioneers yes and butterscotch cowboys, the 1965 Vikings, 1965 WWII british vehicles and figures and some US vehicles like those from the 5960 battleground playset.
Agreed. The 6 inch pioneers and some of the caramel colored Johnny West figures also shattered and crumbled. They all had a very strong “crayon” smell as they aged. Storage always contributes one way or another, but there’s no question that specific categories of figures are more prone to decay. Why? No one has proven why, that I know of.
I have seen quite a few brittle figures , many Civil War figures and 54mm pioneers/cavalry in powder blue. These could be the ones that were affected by temperature issues. I attempt to use many of them for conversions and either they just crack when I try to cut them or they shatter when I insert a pin. Often when I check to determine if they are pliable or not by bending them a little an arm or a leg will snap off. The Vikings I have seen with the issue almost turn into a powder, you may see a foot still on the base and the torso intact, but the rest of the leg just crumbles.
Well,timpo used bad plastic x many solid line.Timpo swopped romans and viking are fragile a lot, wile WW2,modern and most western are not.So definetelly during production some one mess w type mix plastic.
As most timpo had not been expose to weather issues.
Britain space mutant aliens were made of a rubber type material that expired soon and become very sticky with melting tint on it at all time.
Lido knights and CW also were made of fragile expired plastic within time and also without the issue during production.
In my opinion was the plastic used at exact moment and time frame some specific batch sets were released.
Either by does in charge of plastic mix and production machinery.I bet some type of intention was at the moment not thinking in future results on years as intented x children that after few yeas will not touch then any more.
My thoughts
In Playset Magazine’s Atomic Home Video, Vol. 6, “Return to Glendale”, Rusty Kern assembles several of the retired Marx factory designers, engineers, and supervisors at the Glendale Plant for a panel discussion.
The Foreman of the Injection Molding Dept., in response to a question from Rusty, explains that in all batches of injection molding figures, the machine operator would pull out the figures, separating them from the sprues, and then the sprues were always combined with the next batch of plastic, so as to avoid waste.
He says this was how they consistently did it, across all lines, in every batch. It was standard operating procedure to reuse the plastic from sprues or from figures which didn’t mold correctly.
Hence, whatever the cause (or multiple causes) was, whether it was a particular batch or type of plastic, or subsequent longterm exposure to extreme hot or cold, it wasn’t the presence of reground plastic, since reground plastic was always used.
This is one old wive’s tale we should be reasonably able to put to rest, and look elsewhere for explanations as to why some Marx figures became brittle over time.
And we should be particularly careful about damaging the reputation of current toy soldier producers by “throwing out” on a blog these types of baseless rumors.
At the conclusion of the panel’s discussion, in light of the information provided, Rusty Kern then pronounces as “discredited” the theory that it was the use of reground plastic that causes some Marx figures to become brittle.
Again, Vol. XI, Return to Glendale DVD.
Intersting discution.Im wonder how many and x how long all tjose people work.
Marx has 2 factories least in US.
And I bet not a 3 er of those involved in specific had ever been interviewed
Any how most plastic used in today produced in china figures are from plastic from there.
That contening a lot PVC.
Nothing to be w marx materials.
We also must realized that Marx also for a period of time did not regrind figures and parts and place them in dumps in West Virginia.
There two type of regrind plastic base in these toy soldier factories during production.
Regrind using exact same waste left over from previews production (such sprues and parts*),and ..
The one sent or recollected either with mixed plastic of from another source not related to same used before-Sample (recycle regrind plastic used by Mexico to reissue Marx )
So when regrind question come the two should had to be taken in consideration and both would give different results in short or long term period.
Now base in my experience there is some debut to such simple explanation of production as to recollect the same plastic excess from left over in plastic during production …I let that to those who believe it…Not point me going further..
But also environment may damage plastic quality if it contain more natural synthetic component that expired within time.So it could happen because the plastic used definitely was not best them as had adverse effect after period of time, wile others did not.
So in my conclusion MARX -Did use many different plastic otherwise some would not be affected and others do when exposed to weather /time .And some of those plastic were not good and still are not ,wile others had last till today with out any problem.
My thoughts..
best…
I don’t know enough about the process to really comment, but I was wondering can they put in say additives that can change the final results of the plastic? I heard once and I don’t remember who said it, that Marx made some type of change to their plastic by adding something to the mix. It sounded feasible to me, not knowing any better and that in my eyes would explain why those figures at that particular time were more brittle. Of course I don’t even know if that’s possible, but someone said it so I thought I’d pass it on to determine if someone knew what they were talking about or talking out of their rectum.
Yes .I had work on it and also see how is done.IT is all time done.
The aditive with PLX had been used since early 50 and did not developed till late 70 with better results.
Before they test and prooved w what they thought was best.
Any plastic silver marx figure show it more clear than any .
Molds and press machines use special chemical x cleaning every often.IF these residues in small portion still linger could mix too w new products being poured and not noted as will disipated as soon next come after ….
Using ultraligh special will show it.Today they use it and run first batch to test.
Back then no way prove it.
I forget,the colors paint use may influence too.
Any how is too late now to find out what went wrong.
So I guess will stay x ever as that..
On Timpo I red they knew they mess w plastic granulated x some time but did not realize till few years after ….
I’ve also heard and I can’t prove or disprove it, but that the guys in Mexico ground up tupperware and made soldiers out of it which is why their figures come in odd colors and a little stiffer. If you stay up late at night and drinks beers with these guys at toy soldier shows you can hear all sort of weird stories. I drank with Bill Murphy a couple of times and he has great stories.
Well pretty much they use all plastic recycle they use x bottle taps.so I will easy belive they use all.
Now I should not get involve in it but I will do an offer x sake of marx hobby fan.
I have way to test a figure from Marx and tell u the components.The figure will need to be desintagrated in the process.
Test is free but forget about figure.
It will take from 15 to 30 days to get lab result.
All inside plastic will be disclosed,inluded paint type used unless over 100 years old.
Well, I dont think I’ll be sending you a Johnny Ringo then. I do have two broken brittle ones, will they work?
Could be just a torso .I need a true brittle figure part.That it all.
The result is from a lab that work direct w plastic made x chemical conteiner.The speciallize in it in order to test adverse reaction.
So the decompose any plastic in a process that tell pretty much all,inluded reaction of each contein it is made.
The early figures from Mexico were stiff plastic that had high breakage. Certain poses broke more than others. I also got some odd figures that were pulled too soon. One I have is a Colonial marching . He is half his size.
I got two figures or at least a good of part of two figures I’ll send you, both brittle as heck. E-Mail me your address.
I just did.
One casualties only needed.Not more. Thanks.
Lets find out what went wrong with the disease.
Oh boy science. I’ll mail one tomorrow. He has no head one arm and no feet.
Enough x necropsy ,so much x the glory !!!
Thanks to technology ands science we may find out some true, least from these figures…
He will serve his last duty,postmortem…
…and your sacrifice as owner is gladly appreciate in the hobby too ed.
Not joking…I’ m serious.
Now I have a question to any one here.
When you guys first notice the brittle issue in the Marx figures?
I had never got any Marx brittle figure, but I had several LIDO knights.
I first find out from the ones from my father(My father did not play with then he literally, save and place then in cases)
But in 80’s I grab a group of Knights and place then in floor after several days playing I notice one loose an arm just by dropping it from tower of the Marx tin castle, few days after same happen to others, another lose a leg wile trying put it in horse and then I stop, after placing all in boxes ,few years later I found others broken.
This is my only experience with US made figures back then
On Timpo is another tale of course, specially with Cossacks that you can drop on a table and come apart … But had happen as collector now .
Swopped Timpo romans and Viking if try put a shield chances are the arm snap off easy with out doing any pressure.
Again Timpo issue has been discussed before in other blogs were refer to errors in type plastic used. Both Timpo solid-original and swopped plastic are not Polythylene derivate as most MARX vintage were.
I’ve had hundreds of broken figures from all different figure makers and the common denominator was extreme temperature swings. I had a Blue and Gray set that had all of the first issue figures turn to dust while the Centennials and riders were perfect.
I actually made inquires among some Lab people from work. The result was that it depended on the amount of oil in the figures. Plastic is a petro based product.
The Lab guys told me that heat/cold swings dries out the oil in the plastic, at a faster rate. Thus causing cracking and breakage.
Of course, it depended on what the original composition of the plastic was.
The theory was that regrind had been exposed to high temps at least twice, resulting in a quicker breakdown of the chemical composition.
This was back around 1995 or so. Take it for what you will.
Bill.thanks.
Does figures were vintage all or any non reissues.
Soft plastic correct?
Then they become brittle after 30 years or so?
About the theory given unfurtunately is incorrect .I will explain later.
But simple response is …
Plastic itself do not breakdown any composition under any circumstance.All are made of oil in one way or other.
Petroleum to be more specific and it does not react to heat or sun unless zero oxigen in molecular composition.
Some type 3 react to heat because of type plastizades used during process as adhesive.These are not use in toys,as become flammable.
Any how,my cuririosity is to find out if any one has a figure that was brittle cinse day one as child.
And speaking of Playset Magazine DVDs, I notice that an ad for the new Fort Apache DVD is now up on the Playset Magazine website, with a nice preview. Somehow, both Eric Koopmeiner and Ed Borris have wangled themselves not only into the hour and a half production, but also into the preview itself. It looked pretty good, and I’d like to see the whole thing as soon as possible — but since we’re now somewhat close to Chicago, I’ll wait until then to buy it at the show from Rusty Kern directly, thus saving the $3.95 shipping charge.
When I say “close to Chicago”, I mean close to “the date of the Chicago Show”.
It’s saving all the accumulated shipping costs (which offsets to some small degree the costs of traveling to the show) that helps me justify (in my mind) going to the expense of attending OTSN in the first place.
Mine will be arriving today via Kutnick.
Rusty actually interviewed me more or less for the video over the phone. He chose me I didn’t ask to be in it, but I’ll take the fame.
You might as well take the fame, Ed. When you get on the masthead of Playset Magazine, or get featured in one of Rusty’s great DVDs, you have arrived. And what better one to be featured in than the latest and greatest “Fort Apache Story”.
I guess this is my time for fame, first Toy Soldier and Model Figure Magazine issue #219, now the DVD. Funny that I had to wait 65 years to get my 15 minutes.
Well I guess u are famous already…..just adding more of u acomplishment to the hobby world…
Congrats!!#:-) 🙂
Well, some might argue infamous.
At least you got your 15 minutes. Many of us are still waiting for our own.
Ed.I doubt
No reason.Is not u first time…
No one fomous is infamous.
I just made a simple synthetsis of few main data base in my training at work and experience working I the field. I try use more simple words but some are not. Sorry.
Hope give some idea for any one interested.
Plastic types Polypropylene and Polyethylene (second-being discovered in the 30s ) but not fully devoloped till 50’s after the development of catalyst were the bases of MARX products and because being test industrial in mass in mid- late 50’s I think unfurtunately relaid in many experiment that were not complete developed or proppely tested.
Stabilizer
Heat and light stabilizers are added to plastics and elastomers because they ensure safe processing and protect products against premature aging and weathering.
Plasticizers or simple dispersants
Are additives that increase the plasticity or fluidity of a material (Plastic)during the melting and molecular configuration process to delivery the adecuated time and maniable process required in order to archive the desired product.
Both Stabilizer and Plasticzer are aditives used in production and had varied since early a lot from beginning at production level given the desire product but not tested during years after .
As plastic industries were in the infancy in the 50’s and early 60’s still .
The plastic molecular/chemical component itself do not decompose unless affected by one of the two additives above.
A third aditive that may affect but in less qunatitiy could be tint or colorant used,also know common as colors.
About plastic.
Plastic is a polymer, which means it is nothing more than a long chain of smaller units hooked together. A good example of a polymer is polyethylene. Ethylene (ethane) is the monomer and, when lots of these are connected end-to-end in a chain by a chemical reaction that breaks the double bond, a polymer is formed.
Monomers are obtained by refining petroleum. They are usually found naturally in oil or can be easily manufactured through simple chemical processes. It is important that the monomers be pure because contamination prevents them from polymerizing to form a chain and can also lead to weak or brittle plastic in the end during polymerizing .
The refining process of the petrolleum for all plastics .
Is made from oil by a special procedure that changes the oil’s carbon. Carbon is an ,element and oil naturally has lots of them.
The actual industrial method is as follow.
Plastics are produced from natural gas, feedstocks derived from natural gas processing, and feedstocks derived from crude oil refining.
Natural gas is used for process heat in the production of precursor chemicals and plastics and as a feedstock for those precursor chemicals. Petrochemical feedstock naphtha and other oils refined from crude oil are used as feedstock for petrochemical crackers that produce the basic building blocks for making plastics.
However Polypropylene and Polyethylene both conteing less 8% petruleum direct derivated and rest are made in cyntetic indurstial created oil ,carbon else.
Polyethylene consists of nonpolar, saturated, high molecular weight hydrocarbons.
Polypropylene Consist most of tertiary carbon atom .
Both are extremmely susectible to heat,sun and UV radiation exposure in the initial formula chemical component,that is why for industrial process are mix with the plasticizers and stabilizer additives explained above.
The above data could be found in reseach,books,internet and is extracted from my study and training at former work I had.
Yes plasticizers, like armor all, lower the glass transition temperature but may vaporize out with increased temperature. The glass transition temperature is the temperature at which the material becomes brittle or crack susceptible. You want glass transition temperature to be low. The dash in your car gets dry (plasticizer released) over time, then as temperature lowers the dash cracks or gets brittle. I have heard of collectors trying to get plasticizers to dissolve back into the vintage plastic but with little success.
Based on what happened to my figures I stored in my parents’ attic in Virginia for years, I assumed it was the extreme hot and cold temp swings that caused the problem. The flat finish Vikings all crumbled, the waxy finish ones did not. The 1965 knights crumbled, the Germans got oily/greasy, the Battleground GIs in tan and forest green crumbled. The dark gray MPC Germans became oily/greasy like the Marx ones but the flat tan MPC Japanese were totally unaffected, as were the Marx waxy GIs and medical guys. I’m glad I kept the civil war and Fort Apache guys in the basement!
Thanks Tim x sharing.Many differet reaction I see on yours.Mean different chemical were used in figures set that create w time and possible weather all that and some did not react adverse.
I got mine in hot humid weather storage from late 60s,till late 80s.then cold and hot in attic,garage storage not insulate space till now.
None of marx from my dad had crumble or wax.
All are pre 1960 production.
Any bough after by me had not yet.
Lido yes.Now inside home.
Wonder if those crumbling are post 1960?
I keep all my own plastic toy soldiers —- both Marx and non-Marx — in climate controlled conditions. Regardless of maker, batch, plastic composition, etc., I don’t think conditions of either extreme cold or extreme heat will be of benefit to soft plastic.
I’ve got some forrest green Marx marines that were probably from the first year they made those sets when they didn’t even have Germans yet. They have been stored in a basement most of their life and are still as supple as ever. I have seen Marx Viking and Timpo Indians just crumble apart upon standing them up. Granted I don’t how the Vikings and Indians were stored over the years, but if I had to guesswhy they fell apart I would think it has something to do with the plastic when they were made. I don’t doubt that adverse weather conditions can have some affect on figures, but I’ve left some figures outside through a Chicago winter and once they were brought inside they were fine. If you shot them with a BB gun when they were frozen they would shatter, but after the winter was over and they brought back in they were fine.
Don.
I agree .it does affect all.
However because my insane amount I had it split in three houses plus.
I lived in two extreme condition and my soldiers.
least more than half are much older than me have to deal with.So I guess eventually will suffer .Till now the marx had survived,others are in well care.
Hard plastic suffer more faster I guess….
But weather is not main culprit.
It definetelly acelarate the degradetion process but if plastic was bad from beginning.
My thoughts…
I once found a bunch of Auburn figures on the sidewalk, not in front of a house either, so I took them. They spent a whole summer in my wading pool that was full of cholorinated water. It did not seem to have an adverse affect on the other than as one might expect the color faded, bleached out I guess you could say. I had them for a number of years after their summer of swimming and they held up fine. They never became brittle at least.
Ed,the rubber early or later soft plastics.??
The vinyl rubber. The guys with the droopy rifles.
interesting…neither Clorox or time/heat affected them big time. So outside effect did not affect then at all Good proof.
Erwin, I think that what’s not taken into account is the fact that Marx was experimenting with several different types of “plastics” AND additives.
I can’t recall where I read this, but I do remember specifically that chalk was added to the Butterscotch Pioneers, flat Vikings and a couple of others. This was a hot topic when all the BoonesBoro figures began to crumble and later the Vikings.
Perhaps the various additives were the cause?
Bill ,you right.indeed I mentioned in limited explanation I did extracted from my old training above
I just review again my job training files and it show chalk additives were massive used from 1956 till 1963 when were actually eradicated after finding negative effect. Now according to chart in use per PRM of plastic it should had n0t be more 0.008 % add per. So I guess back then many did not measure it well and you know results do not show at moment.
As MARX was in the gold era over producing every body else and demand so high with so many sets/figures per month/years I bet the measure was not very accurate and none of then would know side effect .
Also it said about various types of chalks tested during that short period and factories that sale then promoting it to industries like today medicine are promoted to Dr x sale.
So all that would definitely kill the plastic .
Would be great to know the age or years of the particular set with issues, but that I think is a hard nut.
After jus reading more I found following.
Chalk additive is known as CaCO3.They are used in plastic but in toy industries very limited. Problem goes as it help increase rigid and strength in plastic type.
All do it has many benefits, x toy soldiers or figures will definitely affected specially IF mix with others and not correct measure/monitor during constant machinery process.
Another additive/filler I found interesting…
Carbon black or acetylene black was used in same time massive ,now more reduced on Polypropylenes plastic types.
Still is used in tires to protect against ultraviolet radiation.
The adverse effect in the non rubber plastic types is with time turn then darker with grey or black shades coloration ,specially after years of not sun exposure on the material with it.
I bet many of this info or else could be google or found by you guys ,I just reading all my old files and passing some info I find.
Back then when I have to spend days reading and doing test about this I never would know this will come back in the toy soldier forum.
funny!!
Of all the toy soldiers I’ve had over the years, my Marx figures have survived the best. I still have guys from my original Giant Blue and Gray set that are intact – as a matter of fact ALL of them are intact except for the Rebel flagpoles and officer swords. I still have Battleground GIs and Germans, both Forest Green and the waxy kind, the Heritage Blue and Gray, all colors of Ft Apache guys and except for things like the swords and musket on the pioneer using his musket as a club they held up well. And before I grew up and knew of such things as climate my guys were in basements, attics, and even stored in the garage and sheds as we moved from place to place. As a matter of fact, the only problem I remember with casual breakage was on the Marx Germans, their guy running with the machine pistol – their were a lot of amputees even when I was a kid.
Actually, all my guys fared well, including my MPC figures. The first time I ever noticed or was aware of plastic degradation was with my 1/72 scale Airfix WWI doughboys bought in Belgium in 1969. I opened up my guys about fifteen years ago and was shocked to have them fall apart in my hands – and I was keeping them in airtight sealed bags! They were the first Airfix 1/72 set I ever bought so there was a bit of sentimentality involved.
I’m not a chemist, but I did some research and believe there is a lot to be said for quality of plastic as well as care and handling. On some of my later figures – particularly recasts I bought I’ve had some problems, I bought a “Fighting Knights” set over ebay and all the Vikings were pieces – they were a bit darker shade of mint than my original figures I got in my set in 1969. I have to wonder if there are factors that effect the quality of plastic that vary from lot to lot. Did one color of dye have an ingredient that degraded the plastic? Were there other impurities that might have seeped into this or that lot? I think with the Marx German and the flimsy sword on the rebel officer and flagbearer it was a flaw in design, but for a figure to crumble?
And I know from the cheap figures I got from Mexico in the 90s plastic quality DOES count. I remember paying a respectable price for Marx “recasts” I later learned were made in Mexico; they arrived broken in the bag. I was so disgusted; particularly when the dealer (with whom I’ve had no dealings with since) kind of took a tough luck attitude. I still have the guys in a plastic bag but don’t even know if they’d be worth spare parts for conversions.
So I think we’re talking about a number of factors that cause our guys to crumble. I think care and handling are vitally important to keeping our guys going for as long as possible – that’s just common sense; but by the same token if you start out with garbage there’s nothing you can do to preserve it. I think of the Imex Civil War figures with their brittle plastic that broke in the bag before I even got them out.
So yeah, I think some plastics are better than others and I think if you’re not careful with your guys don’t be surprised if they fall apart in your hands.
I had a Marx dark gray German tank crumble. I also had my personal MPC blue cannon (ACW type) crumble on its own which I discovered when I opened my storage box years later. All of my acquisitions have been climate controlled storage since the mid 90’s. The crayon smell is the give away. I just purchased some Airfix british commandos and GIs 1/32 scale in the 1986 boxes (NOS). They have the crayon smell but the rifles are still pliable. The bazooka pose broke during shipment however. Wonder if this is typical of the 1986 box releases from airfix?
Ed I had my debut on the PM videos as the buyer and still owner of the American Patrol playset. Part of the purchase agreement with Glenn Ridenour was to allow it to be opened and video documented.
The enemy of plastics are any form of radiant energy which will degrade the polymer bonds of the material. Heat & light are bad but cool & dark is better , but time is also a factor.
Additives like chalk or talc will flatten the color / texture but can increase the brittleness. Some of the pigments added to plastic actually decrease the brittle factor and carbon black as mentioned by Erwin is used to make the plastic resistant to degradation. The black poly pipe & tubing used for irrigation are an example of this. We have 1/2 inch black polyethylene drip tubing in our garden which has been out on the surface for over 15 years which is still flexible like new.
Plastic which is allowed to overheat in the manufacturing process can also go brittle as the heat destroys some of the bonds in the plastic. So there are many factors which can cause plastic figures to turn brittle and how and where you store them is important – but you may still end up with some brittleness beyond your control.
While all of those conditions you have described can have an adverse affect on the plastic, I would think the problems with the Vikings has to do with the production process. Most likely something to do with the plastic they used too much of one additive or not enough of another. I have only encountered problms with Vikings twice myself, but I understand it was more widespread, which makes me lean toward the plastic problem.
agree ed.
it was plastic production during a time frame …
Any one with specific detail on date=yeas of figures with problems please bring info forward to help if possible.
thanks
Cool, so you got your 15 minutes too huh?
I got the Fort Apache video yesterday, unfortunatley my dvd player decided it was going to buy the farm. So, I can’t even view my part in the video and I really don’t know what my part was. I know I wasn’t video taped so it must be a head shot.
Eddie White, I distinctly remember watching the opening of that American Patrol playset on one of Rusty’s earlier DVDs.
Ed Borris, if you can’t watch the Fort Apache DVD right now because your DVD is on the blink, you can still see yourself on Playset Magazine’s “DVD preview”, which flashes your picture, with the commentator referencing something like “the true story” of the revised poses of Marx 60mm pioneers.
Cool Don thanks I shall do so.
Ahhh I saw a brief glimpse of that handsome devil.
Edd ,may be in computer-may be ??
some times they go automatic once insert, if PC does not have a program then ask x install..
just trying help…
It’s a work computer and they didn’t install a disk drive, they used to, they stopped.
Sorry heard that….
Exp. force look like fine figures ,should paint well,,,,35$for 9??? a bit steep